I don't think that any of us is truly civilized...

Merlin

--
"When will you pay
for the dreams you threw away?
You made it look so easy..."

"Bareknuckle Theatre," by Hot Lava Monster

How To Save A Life: [link]

Not many people are anymore, at least in this society. There are a few mavericks, however, and those are the people we need to follow if we wish to advance as a society.

It's funny to think of how better off we might be if we'd never invented agriculture.

Merlin

--
"When will you pay
for the dreams you threw away?
You made it look so easy..."

"Bareknuckle Theatre," by Hot Lava Monster

How To Save A Life: [link]

No, it goes back farther than that. We are a selfish society, striving for our own perfection.

You might have to enlighten me on this one. As a society now, yes, it is more than evident that we are selfish, but my education only touches on that point and goes beyond it only a negligible amount.

Merlin

--
"When will you pay
for the dreams you threw away?
You made it look so easy..."

"Bareknuckle Theatre," by Hot Lava Monster

How To Save A Life: [link]

Nomadic Native American tribes, from pre-Columbian times, still fought against one another. They had no agricultural base because they were nomadic.

Our base instinct is to try and rise above everybody else, to perfect ourselves or whatever we stand for. We try to be better than everything else. In Christian theology, the reason Lucifer was cast out of heaven was because he fancied himself greater than God. Lucifer, also known as Satan, then entered the garden and tempted Adam and Eve with the fruits of knowledge...the temptation to become better.

Now, this may seem like an idealistic concept, but the ruthlessness in fulfilling this base instinct can be rather frightening.

From the material I have seen, the barbaric savage stereotype of Amerindians is essentially remnants of Colonial propaganda and fought primarily to protect what they had. Those tribes that were silly enough to fight for gain were promptly reminded of their proper place. However, you did say pre-Columbian, and I can only assume that those societies were the same as the ones that were encountered after the "discovery" of the "New World," so I'll admit that I don't have much of an arguement.

I do think that I see your point. The cause is it's own support. The ends justify the means and all that. Yes, we're going to destroy you, but it's only to make the world better, and if it's better, can it really be that bad?

Merlin

--
"When will you pay
for the dreams you threw away?
You made it look so easy..."

"Bareknuckle Theatre," by Hot Lava Monster

How To Save A Life: [link]

Haha, I definitely agree with you there. The Europeans were more savage than the Native Americans. Still, while Native Americans weren't the bloodthirsty savages one might see in a Disney movie, they still had disputes among one another. Wars, when they happened, were not over land or resources, but an establishment of dominance, of who was better. However, I will still stand by my belief that Native American tribes in pre-Columbian tribes were generally more civilized than American society today.

Basically, yeah. It's a perverted, extended view of "survival of the fittest", except that fittest is replaced with best. We scramble over each other for power.